Demystifying Death: Katie Costello on Fear, Truth & Final Moments

In this deeply honest episode, Fran Willoughby sits down with Katie Costello - soul midwife, funeral celebrant, and death educator - whose work brings compassion, clarity, and humanity back into the end-of-life experience. 

Katie shares how her path into end-of-life support grew from early encounters with death, a strong spiritual thread, and over a decade working in care and hospice settings. Her mission is both simple and essential: to demystify dying, reduce fear, and help families feel more prepared and less alone. 

Together, we explore: 

•  What a soul midwife actually does, and how emotional presence transforms the dying process 
•  The difference between fearing death and fearing the unknown
•  Katie’s CPD-accredited programme “Dying for a Cuppa,” created to fill the huge gap in public and professional understanding 
•  Why families often panic, and how preparation can ease regret later 
•  The confessions, reflections, and final truths people sometimes share at the end 
•  How grief becomes tangled with fear, identity loss, and unspoken questions 

This episode is for anyone who has lost someone, is supporting someone who’s dying, or wants a clearer, kinder understanding of what really happens at the end - without fear, confusion, or silence.
 
 
About Katie

Katie Costello is a multi-award-winning soul midwife, funeral celebrant, death educator, speaker, and consultant. She mentors and trains others in end-of-life care and is the creator of the CPD-accredited Dying for a CuppaⓇ Masterclass and host of Dying for a CuppaⓇ The Podcast.

She is also the author of A Gift – Part funeral plan, part life story, part love letter, available on Amazon.

With 13+ years immersed in palliative care, including eight years working in her local hospice, Katie is committed to empowering open, honest conversations around death and dying. She champions choice, autonomy, and love - before, during, and after death.

Her work has been featured in The Metro, The Independent, and numerous global podcasts. She collaborates with multiple end-of-life organisations and charities, sits on the advisory board for the WhiteBalloon Funeral Hub, and serves on the adult steering group for the digital-legacy platform Aftercloud.


Katie’s Links

🎙 Podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/1b1UiyJ9BVjL0rZVA7xHMb?si=itv56zelRLSYxKb0ULE26g

🌐 Website: https://www.katiecsoulmidwife.com/

📘 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/katiecsoulmidwife

📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/katiecsoulmidwife/

💼 LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/katie-costello-endoflife
 

If you have a story that you think would be good for the podcast, please do get in touch by emailing thepowerofthetruth@mojo-motivator.com. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Welcome to the Power of the Truth podcast. I'm your host, Fran Willavate, and today I'm very excited to introduce you to an incredible guest, Katie Costello. Katie is a toll midwife or death dooler. She is working on the front line of hospital care and working with families who are dealing with terminal illness on a daily basis. The work she does is honestly incredible and so important. She spends a lot of time trying to demystify and remove the worries around death and also help people to understand why death isn't something that should be feared or something to be scared of. This conversation is a really important one, and one that I think everybody needs to face. Lots of people are scared of death, but it's the only thing that is absolutely inevitable for us all. Katie's perspective and her attitude towards death is just quite simply beautiful. And I hope you enjoy listening to the conversation and really take something from it as much as I did. I would just like to caveat that by saying that if you are affected by anything that you hear in this episode, there are links in the show notes to Katie's website for more information on how you can have support with death and around death education. So without further ado, I'm very, very excited to welcome to the podcast Katie Costello. Hi, and welcome to the podcast Katie Costello. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me. This is very exciting. Yeah, absolutely. Very welcome. So I started following you on Instagram, I think, probably about three years ago, because we have a mutual connection through Hannah McIntyre and you were on her podcasts, and I listened to that and instantly was fascinated by what you do. So for those that don't know who you are, could you please tell us a little bit about you and um and how you got here, please?

SPEAKER_01 2:14

Thank you. Gosh, so what about me? My name is Katie Costello. My work, my business, if you like, is end-of-life support services. My primary role, I want to say my role, I mean my heart, my soul, who I am, is of a soul midwife, which is the same but different as a death dooler. People are often more familiar with that term. Some people have heard of birthdoolers, where we would have that extra person that goes to appointments with you, helps create your birth plan, chats with you, emotionally is there for you. We have death doolers and soul midwives, and we essentially do exactly that at the end of life for people. So I am that person that again literally walks alongside people. I can go to appointments, I can help with logistics. But fundamentally, our role is really to sit alongside human beings going through the most raw and vulnerable time of their lives. We can help plan and prepare. We, like I said, we can do the technical stuff, but a huge part of what is needed at the end of life is emotional support and safety, is love, essentially. And that is very much what we're here to do. We can support people in a religious or faith-based way if that's what they want. Um, but equally, we're just human beings that have this kind of emotional muscle and this very special maybe gift that enables us to sit in those spaces of discomfort and challenge and emotion and kind of just be there for people. So we are really like the old crone or hag of the village, and I always use that reference, but I love that. I'm quite happy to be known as a crone or a hag. I am that 5,000-year-old soul. I am the elder, or would have been the elder of the village, um, that would have had the long grey hair, the blanket round her shoulders, that might have been chanting, reading prayer, connecting to the earth, cooking food, mopping somebody's brow, cleaning the body. You know, we we've always had that, and many other countries and cultures still do. So that's kind of how I identify. That's where my heart and soul is. I've been, this human experience has gifted me, or my soul has gifted me that on this human experience, shall we say? So that is my primary role is to just be with the dying. I'm also a funeral celebrant, so I'm the person that stands at the front of a funeral and shares somebody's story. I'm very much all about the very personal, bespoken, unique services that people would like. I'm all about choice, autonomy, knowing your options, having the conversation is a huge part of my work in all areas. Um, and I'm also a death educator. I have my own CPD accredited death education program because I worked for eight years at my local hospice. And in the time that I was there, in working, I mean, I've worked in end-of-life care for over 13 years now, but even eight years at the hospice, there's no training that actually tells you what to expect when somebody dies. There's no, there's no real information out there about how a body starts to change, how emotionally we might change, how we can support those physical and emotional changes. There's nothing that really prepares you for what death looks like, how it sounds, why our eyes look glassy, nothing that explains why people naturally stop eating and drinking as they die. All of these very, very human, real human things that we all go through, all of us will experience death. Everybody before us has died, everybody after us will die. Like I always say, spoiler alert, this like this this only ends one way. So everything about that that affects every single person on this planet is that one bit we don't talk about. And I created the education programme as well. Because of my 13 years, I've seen hundreds, if not thousands, of people die. Um, I've supported thousands of people around that dying person. Not to say I know everything, far from it, but I've been in the thick of that frontline experience. And like I said, I worked in my hospice, I know what training isn't out there. Um, so I created some because there's this there's this real gap in our society and our communities where we go to the doctors, we rely on the doctor, we've become so divorced and detached from the fact that this is a human event, we've made it such a clinical one. The doctors do their thing, then then somebody's died and the funeral director does their thing. But what about that bit in between? You know, what about that bit when there is no further treatment, there's nothing else that can be done, we're having to accept whether we like it or not, that somebody's physical body is now going to start to die, decline, and get ready to stop working. Where's that support? There isn't any, because that's the bit nobody wants to talk about. So that's the bit that is very much the focus of all areas of my work and all of my roles is to support that. And like I said, that's why I created the the training programme.

SPEAKER_00 6:51

Amazing. I think it's such important work, and you know, the saying is there's two things that are inevitable in life: death and taxes. But even a lot of people avoid the taxes bit, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:03

And it is the one thing, the one thing in life that connects every single one of us.

SPEAKER_00 7:09

Yeah, and there is this fear around uh talking about death. Yeah. So I'm intrigued. What brought you to this work? How did you get here? What made you think I know? Was it working in the hospice? So do you know what it's before that?

SPEAKER_01 7:25

I growing up, I was all I was always not the weird kid, and I say that with love. I was always somebody that probably had a unique interests. So, yes, when I was a teenager and I found boys, of course, you know, I went through that all normal thing, but I loved crystals and horoscopes and all the kind of spiritual woo-woo stuff. That was very much who I've always been, and I always felt like I wanted to do something in this life. I felt like I was meant to do something. Nothing big, that's not my ego. I just knew that I had a purpose, I just hadn't figured out what it was at that time. And I spent years working in retail, which I loved because it was people. I've already such a people person. I'm a talker, anybody that knows me knows that. So I was always really good with people, and I loved the training, the development, the coaching side of it when I was in management. And then life threw curveballs as it does, and my spirituality was already starting to open up as life curveballs were starting to be thrown my way. Um, then by the time I had my son, my marriage broke down, and that's really when I was cracked, cracked wide open and kind of felt this call or this pull to well, actually, no, I lie. First of all, the call was there to work in care, but my mind didn't make sense of it until I actually started working in care and very much was like, oh my god, I'm home. Like, like this is it, like this is where I was meant to be. And what happened then was because so I started working in care because of those human life circumstances between the the marriage change, my son only you know being young, lots of stuff going on. So I got a job in care really for practical, logistical, financial reasons. But that's when my soul was like, Finally, you've listened to the nudges, and here you are, your home. And what actually started to happen very early on was that everywhere I went, people died. Um, no, and I don't say that to be horrible or funny, but literally, like I would I'd do a visit to do like an assessment for a first visit to see what somebody needed and walk in and go, hold on, this is not what we thought it was, and actually recognise that this person's really poorly. Oh my gosh, what's going on? And I just sort of had this knack, I just had this knowledge, this inner wisdom, if you like, that I as a human person couldn't understand where it came from, but felt very comfortable in that space and seemingly was good at it in the sense of I could read the room, I could offer support for people, I kind of could maybe sense or assess what people might need. And again, to some people this might sound like ego or and it's certainly not, it was a knowing within myself that this is exactly what I was meant to be. So then it evolved from there, really. So I guess my human self didn't realise it. My ego was plodding along, trying to get through life as you do, and my soul absolutely guided me down this route, and the moment it did, everything else opened up. So I was working in in community care, domiciliary care for a few years. I then worked at my local hospice, I got the job there to kind of get more experience, and at that same time, I did my soulmate wiffery training, so that was 10 years ago, and then as that evolved and I was supporting so many people through their deaths, naturally, then people would ask me to do a reading at a funeral or to contribute something or help them with the meeting, go to the funeral directors with them. So I had this really good understanding of funerals and all of that stuff. So I thought, well, actually, I'm a talker, why don't I just look at being that person? Because somebody asked me, they said, Can you lead my wife's funeral service? And I was like, Well, no, I can't, I'm not trained. But actually, you don't need any training, I know now. Um, but that's what made me go, actually, maybe I could do this. So I did, so I did that training in 2020, 2020. It was around COVID because it was all online, 2021, something like that. Um, and yeah, and then so that became a huge part of my work as well. So life circumstances kind of brought me down this road, as well as experiences of loss that I had. My dad's side of the family is Irish Catholic, so seeing a dead body in a casket in the living room is an early memory I have. That was totally normal. My family have always been very open about death and dying, you know, about drugs, sex, like nothing's really been off the table as regards conversations. So I've always been that kind of open person. And like I said, then experiences I had and other losses along the way, I think kind of supported me just on the journey of just kind of almost not validation, but I was able to recognise them as what I would describe as like this kind of sacred transition, and as doesn't take the heartbreak away, it doesn't take the grief away. But even I lost a very, very good friend of mine two years ago, and I was her sole midwife and her funeral celebrant. And as heartbreaking as that was, there were so many gifts that she gave me in being able to face her death the way she did and allow me to be part of it with her. So yeah, life's guided me to here, really. I just learned to be open and listen and surrender and trust along the way.

SPEAKER_00 12:25

All of those lovely spiritual words that we bandy about, but in reality are hard to achieve that surrender and the the trust. Because actually, I know from my mediumship training that that is one of the most difficult uh aspects of spirituality is that surrender. I mean, that's a whole different topic, but I'm so interested in the knowing element of your experiences when you're with people, and I know from my family's own experiences, we're a very intuitive family of grown up. I like you said, death's never been off the table in terms of conversations and reincarnation and things like that, because I had a brother that died uh when he was six, and he died actually the year that I was born. So um, by the time I came along, my family were well versed in talking about death. And I think it was my mum's way of coping was that she was exploring why, how. But if they're prepared to take a six-year-old, what had he come to do in that time? Like if there is a God, I remember her saying that to me. If there is a God, why would he take a six-year-old? And so for her, she she was like, Well, whatever he came to do, he'd obviously done it. And that was that was her own perspective, her way of making sense of. Exactly. Yeah, so that he'd whatever lesson he'd come to learn, or whatever purpose he'd come to serve in terms of his soul, that he'd served that purpose, and therefore the legacy he left behind was his, you know, that would that was his purpose. And and for her, that gave her a lot of peace, I think. So, like I say, as a child growing up in a house where there was those kind of conversations ongoing all the time, it wasn't a case of is spirituality a thing. It's like, oh, by the way, I felt so-and-so around the other day, or oh, by the way, you know, so it was very much that knowing of or that trust and that surrender. And my mum used to tell us this really funny story about how she thought that we were all very intuitive because my grandma's name was Mabel Lee, like Gypsy Rose Lee. So she decided that we were all Romani blood, and that was why we had this kind of spiritual inclination, which I think's hilarious.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

If it helped her, do you know what I mean? I I had this real idea about faith or ideals and whatever. Believe whatever makes you feel better. Yeah. So if that, you know, if that gives her a justification. And I do think on a slight side note, I love that for your mum. I love that she found genuinely something that in her head and heart made sense to her. We need to allow people that freedom. Even if somebody said that doesn't make sense, that's a that's a you know, a bit of a leap. How did you get there? You don't need to justify what matters to you to other people. So if that is a deep, devout Christian faith, for example, brilliant. If that works for you, crack on. If somebody goes, there's absolutely nothing, I don't believe in anything, there's nothing after death, okay, great, you roll with that if that makes you feel better. We need to allow each other the grace and the space to just go, okay, yeah, I agree. It doesn't need to be the same, it doesn't need to tick a box. And especially through grief. Like we are all just trying to muddle our way through grief in the best way we know how. So if is if that is completely made up names and connections and links, I think it probably was.

SPEAKER_00 15:55

But you know, but it doesn't matter. What it did was it set an intention, and we know, don't we, that intention is is just so important in terms of how we create thoughts in our minds and how we are the architects of our reality, of our own reality. Um, and for her, that was the way that she coped. And in doing that, she obviously created this intention within all of us that we could do it. So just to go back to what you were saying about the knowing of when you sit in a room with a person who is dying. Do you feel like you get to the point, probably through, I'm sure, experience as well, where you you know it's imminent?

SPEAKER_01 16:38

Yeah. I I do have that knowing. So I will meet somebody and go, oh heck, like like I can see this coming in the next few hours or days or weeks or months, you know, I there'll be an idea of this person's poorly. However, I'm not in charge of whatever goes on. So equally, if and I do believe in spirits, I do believe in a divine, I believe in bigger stuff than us, and I do believe in some situations people come to get people. So let's, for argument's sake, call it, we'll call it God. If Bob is dying and I look at him and think, oh heck, his physical body, I feel like I get a knowing from the physical body. The physical body will tell me how it's shutting down. It's not to say it's an exact science, I'm not saying I'm always right either, but there is something within me that goes, this person's not going to be here in a in two weeks' time. Like an overwhelming, and I can't justify where that comes from, but it's something that in my head, it's almost like a mind's eye thing. Like something comes up for me. But also, I don't know what God's plan is. God might go, yeah, do you know what? His physical body is got two weeks, but I need him sooner. Or Aunt Mary is coming to get Bob and she's got other work to do, so she's actually gonna wait another week. Like I know that might sound really kind of simple in layman's terms, but whatever goes on after death is I don't think is any of our business. I think there's connections, and don't get me wrong, I totally hear you. I have my own my own other gifts, maybe my own abilities, like this awareness that I've have through this work, but equally it's nothing to do with us. So I have a knowing, yes, the physical body gives me signs, not just that I can see, but that I can feel. And again, I again it's not an exact science, but yeah, but I one thing that I've also had to learn to trust is that, and then also be brave enough to bring that up with people.

SPEAKER_02 18:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:30

Now, not that it's my place to say if I bump into Bob and Tesco's and go, Oh heck, you're really poorly, like I'm not gonna go and say that to a stranger because also who what what do I know? And my my human self, what do I know? However, many situations and I've had a couple very recently where I've been supporting the family as a soul midwife, and then they've called me and gone, something's changed, something's shifted, can you come over? And very recently I saw somebody on one day, and my gut told me that it wouldn't surprise me if they died overnight. And I said exactly that to the family. But then I also caveated it with where they are at right now, with what their physical body is going through. They were going through this period of terminal agitation. After that period of terminal agitation is normally when the body settles, and then we go into the last phase of um dying, which in solid wiffery we would link it to the element of air. We look at death from the earth, water, fire, and air. They were in fire. I could feel them shifting into air. So, but what happens through that process, I said could take a little bit longer. So it could be that actually that we managed to get an extra few more hours or days out of them. Now, as it was, I saw them that evening, they died the next afternoon. So my knowing was right. I'm not saying it to be right, but my the knowing was there. But equally, like I said, there's so many other things at play, but I do have that knowing, and a lot of situations, if it's that overwhelming, I will say to a family, and I say it because, and I also caveat it with, What the heck do I know? They've got their own process going on, because so many people are unprepared. Like that particular situation, the the people that were supporting that dying person were all on the page. It was very open, it'd all been talked about, there was an acceptance. Some with a lot of people, there isn't. So if I walk into a situation and somebody says, you know, my person's changed, I look at them and think, Oh heck, it's happening. I couldn't leave that situation and having not said to somebody, are you aware of how poorly your person is now? Has anybody explained to you where they are at right now today? What did the district nurses say when they came in? Have you had the hospice contact you recently? Try and get an idea of what their understanding is. And sadly, sometimes people are like, oh yeah, no, they did say he was quite poorly, but we're gonna worry about it next week and call the GP. And I'm like, so they they told you next week, did they? They said next week, call the GP. And they're like, Yeah, yeah, we'll sort it, but it's all right, it's my nan's coming from wherever in two weeks' time, so we're gonna wait and see. And that's when I'll say to people, are you open to a conversation actually about how poorly your person is? I know this is gonna be a hard conversation to have, but I really think it's a valuable one. And as emotive as it's going to be, there are things that I think we need to discuss before I leave today that actually will support that emotion. And you see people going, oh, hold on. And it's like the cogs are turning. And I'm not saying I go in there and go, right, my intuition, my inner wisdom says your person's gonna be dead tomorrow. It's that it's it's navigating that with people. And thankfully, I have that skill through my management, my communication skills to go right, we need to have this conversation about death and dying. And again, on a slight side note, this is why it is also so valuable to have somebody like me, a doula, anybody as an extra person in the mix, because we can be equipped to have those conversations and to facilitate those really challenging moments. So that they're still going to be challenging, but we can do it with love, we can do it with compassion, we can do it with experience and professionalism. That actually can support and create something different rather than it being panicking crisis.

SPEAKER_02 22:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:06

So, like we said at the beginning, people don't want to talk about death and dying. And I totally get it because we think it's challenging, it's horrible. I don't want to cry, I don't want to upset this person. But without that knowledge and out that conversation, we either approach death completely unprepared, we then can miss it because we're too busy worrying about other things and we didn't want to face it. And then what happens when you come out the other side is that if you haven't had the conversations and your person's died, you're then going, but what did they want here? How do they feel about that? I never asked them that. And then you're and then as a funeral celebrant, I might step in and be like, right, so let's talk about your mum's life. Where did she go to school? I don't know. Now I'm not saying those things have to be known, but there's this added weight that comes with grief of unanswered questions. And grief cracks you open, and grief comes with all the icky feelings like shame, regret, guilt, that might be completely unfounded, unnecessary, but that's what grief does. Grief will make you question everything. So if you've got those unanswered questions, the conversations that never happened, they do present themselves with grief. So it's not that we can take away grief, but if we have a bit of something in the locker beforehand, if we can sit with death and recognize that it's happening, if we can open ourselves up enough to go, oh, okay, I need to be a bit more prepared now because my mum is actively getting ready to leave this world. And actually, I can have the conversations with her here, I can talk to her sister, I can find out about her wishes. Gosh, she never mentioned music for a funeral, she never wanted to talk about it. If some of those conversations can come to the fore beforehand, our grief is more supported on the other side. Even just a tiny bit, but that tiny bit is is worth its weight in gold when you're grieving.

SPEAKER_00 23:50

Yeah. The premise of this podcast is truth, and lots of people are sometimes in denial about death. Actually, if you've got someone that's brave and that is prepared to have those conversations and be honest with you about the situation you're in, um, it would make a huge difference, I'm sure, to any family going through that end of life process. I've been through it myself in the last year. Um, I was with my mum when she died, and I wasn't with my dad. I've lost them both in the last year. And mum, we were with her, we did know exactly. I'm very fortunate my sister worked in nursing care for a long time. She's an ex-paramedic uh, not paramedic, which was uh worked on the ambulances. She's seen a lot of death, a bit like you. She knows when it's come in, and she was able to have those conversations with me as the youngest who wasn't very good at that kind of thing. Uh, and so I'm and I am really glad I was there, and I am really glad she had those conversations with me beforehand, so I can really see the benefit in having somebody who understands death, who is present to ease that burden, really.

SPEAKER_01 25:01

And I've said this a lot lately, we all just need to get better at death, yeah. And even so, even with all the experiences that people might have, the qualifications, and like I said, I've said I've seen a lot of death, no one's really expert at this. But what makes this whole thing more palatable is if we remember that we are all human beings, that's it. Like death, as I said earlier, becomes such a clinical medical thing, and it's not, it's the most human experience that we go through. And actually, if we can have somebody walk alongside us as another human being, you know, I don't come in there with any, I said about being professional and all the words, and I know the language. Of course, I can do all of that, but essentially I'm trying to approach people as a human being. I'm recognizing the challenges, I'm sitting in the challenges with them. I'm a human being, I'm not immune to this stuff. I don't have all the answers when my people die. You know, I I agree, but so, but it's I know, like you said, when you see the impact of having the conversations versus not, when you see the impact of that openness and that transparency with death, when you can see and feel the difference when there is truth and honesty and vulnerability, that's what I wish for everybody because as humans, that's what makes us better at this. That's what enables somebody to have even maybe a better or a good death in whatever way that means to them. Because what good death means to each of us is unique and that's great. But one thing that does always support that in whatever idea that is, is truth and honesty, is being able to not necessarily have all the conversations all day, every day, and go death, death, death, death, death, dead. Like it doesn't have to be done in that way. But to have a conversation with love and compassion and kindness and emotion, let there be tears, let people be upset. You're not gonna stop that. Nothing can change or avoid that. But what that does with emotion is make it real. And having those moments, once everything is talked about, if everything has been shared or everything in that moment that could be shared, park it. It's done. Like then keep living, then focus on the fact that your granddad's enjoying ice cream for breakfast and a glass of sherry at lunch and that's all he's eating. Crack on with that. Enjoy watching the cricket on telly with him. Enjoy laughing about the old holidays. Carry on living with him, letting him live, knowing that that honesty and truth is there underlying because everything's been talked about, or everything that you can think of, everything that you and he or they want to talk about has been aired.

SPEAKER_00 27:33

Yeah, and you know what? I think sometimes things change. Like mom, we nearly lost mom a year before she actually died. She had got pneumonia, she was in hospital. And my sister rang me because I lived four hours away, and she rang me and she went, Mum's not good. I think, I think you need to come. And I was like, Oh, I don't know. Like, literally was like, I'm not sure I'm not sure I I've never seen a dead body, I'm not sure I want to be there. And she was like, Okay, that's totally cool. She went, I'm gonna I'm well, I'll be with her, you know, that's fine. And I was like, oh, and she was like, I just don't want you to regret it, you know. And I was like, no, no, no. Um I just I think um it's not for me, perhaps being with someone when they die, you know. I I I've never seen a dead body, I don't know how I feel about that. Anyway, mum then made a bit of a miraculous recovery um and thought that she'd been given a second chance hilariously. She gave gave us all this, oh, they let me come back because, you know, for whatever reason, I can't remember what she said now. Uh and then, you know, the next year sort of passed with mum coming home and everything got went back to normal and everything was fine. And I did have a couple of conversations with my sister about it afterwards and sort of said, you know, I don't know, I don't know why I didn't want to be there. I don't know, it wasn't I didn't want to, but I just I was scared, I guess, is the honest truth. And but then when it actually came to it, when we knew it was happening, and we had a bit more lead up because again, my sister was leading me through this is probably this bit and this is this bit, and we know it's gonna get to this. And I was with her at the end, and I'm so grateful now that I was there. But had we not had that lead up to it the previous year, I'm not sure I would have got to that point. And now I'm so grateful that I was with her at the end, and I feel much more equipped to talk about that and death as a result. Um, and it changed me.

SPEAKER_01 29:29

Yeah, but oh yeah, and that's the thing, having that experience, and our experiences do change us, and you you maybe you maybe that was your gift. You were given your mum came back. Maybe that was actually the purpose of that was for you. Maybe because it's only when the proverbial hits the fan that we are faced with this. What are you gonna do? How do you feel? And suddenly fear takes over when it comes to death. We it's a natural response for most people that go into this fear state because it's death, it's dying, it feels unknown. And after death, to some extent, it you know, is unknown. No one can say for certain what happens when we're dead, no one can say for certain what happens in a person's physical body at that moment that everything stops. There's science and there's studies and all sorts of stuff, but but fundamentally we don't know what we will be feeling in that moment. That's where the fear comes from. And then people start saying, well, they're you know, they're scared about watching somebody die. But it's again, it's fear because they have this idea or assumption about what death will look like. They think it's gonna be a zombie horror film type thing, or it's gonna be something you'd see on 24 hours in AE where it's a horrific accident. There was somebody very recently who I supported, I supported them while they were supporting their spouse. And when their spouse died, they turned around and said, Well, that was a bit boring. So because it was completely anticlimactic, because there was just this real calm, non-event. They just stopped breathing. So they were prepared, and we'd spoken a lot about this fear, and they kept thinking it was going to be this big thing, and it wasn't because 90% of deaths aren't. Most are calm, peaceful situations. Yes, our bodies change as they die. But at whatever age, if there's illness, our bodies start to look different. Some people lose a lot of weight, some people gain weight depending on medication. There's lots of things that our physical bodies go through, but there still are people. Yes, there's changes, but this is the bit that people are scared of the unknown, but it doesn't need to be unknown. Yeah. Because actually, the information is out there. I guess I've got my my my own death education. You can find this stuff out. We just choose not to look. So people have this fear, and it's only until something happens where then they can recognize, oh, actually, I can do this, or I was right, I don't want to be there. That's the other thing I just want to mention is okay as well if people don't want to be there when somebody dies. But it doesn't mean the conversation shouldn't happen.

SPEAKER_02 31:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:46

Because if somebody says, Do you know what I don't feel I need or want to experience witnessing my person die, I don't feel I want to do that, whether it's fear, whether it's the dynamic of the relationship, maybe it's history, whatever it is. That's also okay. But at least have the conversation with somebody close to you. Explore that, still be truthful with yourself as to where that is coming from.

SPEAKER_02 32:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:08

Know that actually you're not just avoiding it or you don't want to be there out of this fear of they're gonna die and I don't know what it looks like. No, be honest with yourself. Talk to your person, your spouse, your tribe, your village around you to explore those feelings. And then if you come to the decision, as your person's dying, do you know what? I don't need to be there, and there's a peace within you, roll with that. That's your gut going, yeah, do you know what? You're making the right decision. What's really interesting though is that if people are brave enough to go there within themselves, because this is what also death asks of us, it's not just the truth and the honesty of a conversation, it's the truth and honesty of ourselves. It's us being able to go within and go, what's going on for me? Where is this coming from? How do I deal with this? Do I cope? Is it something I can evolve with? How do I grow? How do I change? We've got to have those conversations with ourselves to then decide on what you feel you need from that experience of somebody dying, you know, whether you need to be there or not be there and for what reasons. So if you can do that and you can sit with peace, great. But like I said, what often happens is when people sit with it, they open up, they have a conversation. The hospice or somebody like me might be able to explain what they're going to witness, you know, what they're going to see and hear. They may have support from the district nurses to explain that there's this medication in place, so that might stop that happening. But if you've got the information, quite often people will change their mind because they'll go, it's a less unknown now, and I can recognise that I felt I didn't want to be here because I had this also experience with Fred, and now Bob's dying, and actually I feel I can sit with Bob, but I couldn't with Fred, because like exactly like you just said, that moment I couldn't do it, and this moment I can. And that also touches into one thing we started talking about before we hit record is the differences in our experiences of death with different people. Just because you have seen something with one person or two people or even three people in your life does not mean that every death is exactly the same for everybody else. It's not. Like I said, 90% of deaths are safe, peaceful, calm, fairly quiet, non-events. In you know, emotionally, yes, but from a practicality, a body will go through a journey, it labours through death, exactly like it does through birth, as it labours through death. The body is intuitive, it's instinctive, it knows exactly what it's doing. We can trust our bodies as we die. They do what they need to do. Yes, we might need to be supported by medicine. Yes, there are things that we might need to do to support the discomfort that might come with dying. If there's things like pain, that's normally the pain is coming from the reason for which we are dying, not the dying process itself. The dying process is not a painful process, it's the body doing what it knows instinctively and naturally how to do. So, as all that's happening, we can sit with it because we understand it differently. And we understand that actually, just because we saw something with somebody else doesn't mean that this person's going to be the same.

SPEAKER_02 34:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:59

When I worked in retail in a previous life, we used to have customer service uh mystery shoppers. Um, so people would come in obviously rate the customer service. Statistically, if somebody had a good experience, they'll tell on average about three people in their circle. So if you go for a nice dinner, you we have a chat later and you go, Oh, yeah, John went out for dinner last night, you probably wouldn't think to mention where it was. You'd just be like, Yeah, it was a nice dinner. You just drop it into about three people in conversation. If you'd have had a really awful meal and the service was bad and your friend got food poisoning and all this stuff, you'd be saying to me, gosh, I went to this restaurant with this name and this situation had this. You would tell me every detail. And statistically, you would tell 10 people. This is what happens with death and dying. Every experience that we have that is challenging, we tell 10 people. But what also happens for a lot of people, that challenging experience was challenging because they didn't know that it was actually normal and natural what they witnessed. It's challenging to them because of course what they feel they've seen has been horrific. But actually, what they witnessed was normal dying. Now, if somebody had explained that to them, that may not have been such a horrific situation. So many people I've supported when they've come to me after the fact and said, My wife did this, this happened, they made that sound, the nurse did or didn't do this, and they're reeling off this story, and I'm thinking, this is all normal. Of course, it doesn't feel normal to be in it, but as far as the dying journey, this person had a very, dare I say, even textbook dying labor of dying, but it was never explained. So every sound was heartbreaking, every minute felt like an hour, they felt helpless, that the nurses were abandoning them, they they didn't have this, their person starved to death because they didn't understand that somebody naturally stops eating and drinking as they die. So actually, their experience is horrific, but on paper it really wasn't. So they're telling 10 people about this awful experience, but the awful experience they're delivering was normal, but they didn't know it. So this snowball effect then happens through society, and then we have a bunch of us here, particularly in the UK, not being very good at being able to have the conversation because we think it's something more awful than the reality of what it is.

SPEAKER_00 37:14

Yeah, what's really interesting actually is once I'd experienced it, because I'm a talker like you, I like to talk, um, and I would speak to my friends and they'd say, Oh, were you with your mum when she died? I'd say, Oh yeah, I was actually. It was, it was it was amazing. And I do feel like I saw her soul leave her body or whatever. And they'd say, Oh yeah, I was with my mum when she died. And I was like, Oh wow, just out of interest, because we had this kind of funny moment at the end. There was me and my sister and my two nieces. We were all very close, and we were all with our you know, little witches' coven around the around the bed, and we were all we holding on to each other, holding on to her. It was a beautiful, beautiful moment. Um, and my sister had warned me that my you know, my mum's breathing would change and that there'd be this thing that they call the death rattle, and that you know, this whole thing. So again, I was very fortunate in that I'd had that information coming to me, but the breaths obviously got further and further and further apart. And so we'd think it had happened, and we were all there, like, oh my god, this is it. And then suddenly she'd go like again, and there was this moment when we all kind of had a little like, oh my god, like because it shocked us because we weren't ready for it. We thought it had happened and it hadn't. And it's funny because I've since spoken to other friends who've been through that experience with a parent or being with someone that's died, and they've gone, oh my god, that happened to us too. And it brought this kind of beautiful, humorous moment into this kind of. I mean, like I say, my sister was like, Don't laugh, don't laugh because it's a real sad moment and we shouldn't be laughing. But that the lightness is okay. Yeah, you were just being human. Yeah. This fear around a dead body suddenly dissipated because of partly because of that moment and because we were with her for that length of time as she was going through the dying process, and then went to visit her in the funeral home, which I would never have dreamt of doing before. And then because I wasn't with my dad, didn't even think twice about going to see him in the funeral home because I was like, Well, I need to just go and see him because I'm seeing him. So that took the fear away. Because I guess the way I deal with it is it is just the shell of the body, the soul has gone. So it's just the part of them that held their soul while they were in the physical world, you know, and we laugh and call it Yamitsu. And that's how I cope with it. That's just my way of dealing with it. But it it is interesting how that journey of being totally scared and not wanting to see a dead body to being with someone when they died and feeling this kind of enlightening experience to being totally fine with seeing a dead body, and then just it becoming sort of not an everyday experience, because obviously it was incredibly sad, but it felt different. And so just through knowledge, I guess, which is obviously so much of what you're all about is that death education and making sure people understand death and that it isn't something to be scared of.

SPEAKER_01 40:23

And do you know what as well? When people say they're scared of death or dying themselves, maybe people might talk about I can't be there, this whole situation. It's often not the death or the dying bit that they're scared of, it's they're scared of their grief.

SPEAKER_02 40:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:36

We're scared of the magnitude of what we know is coming. We're scared of this, I can't even imagine life without my person being next to me or being here in my life. So therefore, I don't want to face this because it's just too overwhelming. And I totally get that. That's a very human reaction to have. But I also think it's very helpful to have that awareness of I am petrified of my feelings here. I know how much of a big deal this is going to be for me emotionally. But we can separate that between your own thoughts and feelings and your presence with death. Being scared of dying, that's a whole other conversation that we could have another day, like people's fear of their own mortality, that's something else. But in this moment, if we're talking about that fear of I don't want to be there, my person's dying, I don't want to go see them, I can't talk to them, it's often because of our feelings about it, and it's often because of our feelings of grief. And also, when somebody dies, there can also be fear of a lot of other things. Like if somebody has been a carer and that's that's been part of their identity, maybe people have moved in, maybe they're receiving carers' allowance, maybe there's a financial implication. None of these fears or worries make anybody a bad person, but life keeps lifeing around your grief. So the grief isn't always just about I love my person so much, and then I'm not gonna be here and I know how much I'm gonna miss them. It's where do I live? What do I do for a job now? I've been a paid carer for this person. What you know, how's my life gonna look? Also, I haven't I've lost friends. Or this person was my friend, and I've lost that connection. I used to take this person to bingo every week, and now I'm I maybe won't get to go to bingo, and I really used to enjoy talking to Steve at bingo every Monday. Like there's all of that knock-on effect, and we call them secondary losses. So there's this impact of grief that, and I think it's you know, it's okay to recognise that we don't just grieve the person because they're not here and we miss them and we love them. There's the whole life that we had, and also we grieve the life that we may have had going forward, particularly if it's spouse or children. That's a whole other level of loss and grief and complexity that comes with that because it goes against the natural cycle of life. If we lose somebody young or one of our people that we've created, it's just it's completely unfathomable. That's a whole other layer then to what life would have looked like. Grief is so complex by its very nature, like I said, and it does bring up the worst possible thoughts and feelings that we could go through, but still having the conversations will support you. Somebody said to me recently, a masterclass I delivered for an organization. Somebody there said how much they took away from it about talking to their parents and understanding what they wanted. But then somebody asked them and said, But what about your children? And he said, Well, not yeah, but they know what what I want. And they were like, No, no, what do they want? Do you know what they want? And he was like, I never even thought of that because in my head, they're never dying before me. And of course every parent thinks that, but it's a conversation that still needs to happen. I'm a big advocate as well for talking, um, but for understanding our choices, like I said, but at any stage in life, end of life planning should not be done at end of life. I've got my stuff sorted. I've talked with my 14 year old son, God forbid, I can't even imagine anything ever happens to him. He's already said things like. Like I wouldn't want to be put in a coffin because I I don't I feel really claustrophobic. So God forbid, and I I will pray to anybody that's listening, and whatever I need to do, I don't ever have to do it. But I know that if I was in that situation, I would know that I would have something like a wicker basket, a woven, like a Moses basket, and I could cover it with flowers and linen, that kind of thing. That's the kind of thing makes me feel sick thinking about it.

SPEAKER_02 44:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:25

But I know what he wants, he's 14.

SPEAKER_00 44:27

Yeah. So just to think about you, obviously, you're going through this process with people. How do you manage your emotions when you get very close to people? How does that work for you? I think lots of people would say, God, I couldn't do that. You know, I'd just be too emotional. And as a professional, I'm sure you are brilliant at separating that. But does it take its toll? Do you sometimes you come home and you're just like, that was heavy. That was a really hard one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:58

Every day it takes its toll. I use the term earlier and I only discovered it recently, where somebody said, I must have a really strong emotional muscle. And I was like, oh my God, I love that because that does really sum up. I have a gift, my soul has been sent here with a purpose. That's how I make sense of it. So a lot of what I do, and this will make sense to you, I'm sure, but a lot of what I do is channeled through me because it's this ancient wisdom, it's my soul purpose. So I'm not saying that there's, you know, Fred on my shoulder going, Oh, like, but I'm there's this knowing that comes through me to be in those spaces. So it's my my human self just supports my soul doing its work. I did a video for Lad Bible a couple of years ago. Yeah, yeah. Someone commented and said, Oh my god, that death dool is doing my head in, she hasn't stopped talking. And I get that a lot. But what's really interesting is in those moments at the bedside when I'm with grief and raw feeling and challenging situations, I don't talk. A lot of the time I'm just present. It is presence and support and emotional safety that I create for people just through being there because I don't flinch or shy away from the hard stuff. But that's my my soul comes through. It's like my human self steps back and my soul comes through to hold that space for those people. So it's not about the talking, it's about the presence. But that is exhausting. And even if it's not a case of I've spent time with people and I've got to know them very well, that I might just find a situation emotional. I might do one visit for somebody, but maybe it's actually that everybody's shouting and screaming over each other. Maybe the family dynamics, maybe that person isn't a loved one. The fluffy, lovely, loving situations are sometimes easier to deal with because there's a lot of love. So the love in that space, the energy of that love is felt, and you it just feels like a completely different space to be in. You swap that with difficult dynamics, strange relationships, histories, experiences, mental health, emotional well-being of other people in the room that are struggling. Like that is harder to deal with. So I have to recognise the moments I'm in, and I always kind of take stock when I come out of a situation. Literally, as I come out of a building or a house or when I get in my car, I never drive off straight away, is something I've realized I do. It's like I just have to sit there for a few minutes and let everything within me land. I have my own little practices like my protective bubble, my own energy, my feet grounding roots into the floor, you know, those little visual things that really help me just get back into my body. But then also I'm I kind of wing it in the sense of I cry if I need to cry when I get in the car. Cake for me is a really big soothing tool. Like I don't I don't really drink, I don't smoke. So for me, to come home and smash a whole Victoria sponge cake is my therapy. You don't sit down. It's I don't, I don't have, and many people don't have, the time to go to a spa for the day. I don't when people talk about self-care, I look at self-care in the sense of what self-care quick wins can I achieve today? So it might be that I just stand outside my back door for 10 deep breaths. I might just watch telly and watch something like traffic cops with a bar of dairy milk and a cup of tea for half an hour. That's the I I absolutely take advantage of those moments because my life and my world is so busy. I'm a businesswoman as well. Obviously, this is my business. So there's paperwork and taxes and expenses and websites and all of that other stuff, social media to do. But the other thing that allows me to cope is letting myself feel stuff. And that's not something we're always very good at because there's something else to do. I might be at somebody's bedside very recently, and then I was taking delivery of a fridge freezer and a new, I had to go and pick up a new Hoover. All happens at once. So my life is like, what is this life? Like, what am I doing? I'm with the dying and then I'm meeting Amazon delivery guys. It's just crazy. Um, so I have to just roll with it. I have to let myself feel. I cancel plans or I move plans if I need to. So boundaries are a big one. But I think again, I let myself be human. That's how I do it. I I don't try and be everything to everybody. I'm certainly not everybody's cup of tea either. I've learned to trust that I'm a bit like Mar Might. Some people will just be wound up by me. Other people go, Oh my god, I love listening to her. And that's okay. I'm not here for everybody. I'm here to help as many people as I can. But God, if I irritate people, fine. But if I've also let you know that there are other song midwives and other doolers and that this is a thing, my work here is done.

SPEAKER_00 49:25

Yeah, amazing. So much of what you say resonates with me. It's lovely. So just to take things on a slightly different attack, you've obviously been with a lot of people when they've died, and I'm sort of curious and interested to know about the process of uh mentally when people go through as they're they know they're gonna die. So this is not someone that just drops dead of a heart attack. This is someone who is aware that they're terminally ill. And I know that people often feel like they need to take stock of their lives when they're told that and that there is this need for truth in those moments, either to talk to loved ones about perhaps something that they've kept a secret their entire life, or uh, like I say, like a confession at sometimes about things I don't have. Obviously, I know you can't go into details professionally, but is there anything that you could share with us that what people might find interesting about that subject in terms of people feeling the need to confess? I just I think that's fascinating that the soul suddenly finds this need to wipe the slate clean almost to make sure they go to heaven because we're conditioned, aren't we, to believe that we've got to be a good person, otherwise death's not going to be a good place to be. I personally don't believe that, so I'm not worried about it, but I think lots of people are conditioned to believe that you know, heaven or hell, you've got two choices, and what's next depends on how you behaved in this human life.

SPEAKER_01 51:08

So you know, I I think it's really interesting actually because there's a couple of things there that that that touches on, and some people would talk about faith or spirituality and go, Well, I don't believe in anything. It's interesting how much faith and religion and spirituality come up for us at the end of life, it always comes up. So even if somebody says, I've never believed in anything, there's a conversation still to be had there. And you say about a conditioned behavior. I feel like for the most part, if people don't identify as having a strict faith, and they don't necessarily go, right, well, I'm gonna be with Allah, I've done this, I've done this for my Buddhist faith, I've done that to be Jewish, like whatever it is, unless people have a very clear idea, most people are quite vague or open, but it always comes up, and I think it's a case of more a case of what if. Yeah, suddenly people go, I don't believe in anything, but what if there are pearly gates that I have to go and knock on? What if the big guy goes, hmm, sorry mate, you're not coming in. What if I am going to come back as a dung beetle? What if I am not going to see the people that I love that have gone before me that I somebody told me I might see? You know, there's so many so faith comes into death and dying hugely, often with this idea of what happens afterwards. But I I see it as people suddenly want to hedge their bets or go, but what if? Equally, if people have had a devout faith, what happens sometimes is people go completely against their faith or question why would God do this to me? Why your mum could have gone down a different road and gone completely the other way against any kind of faith or religion or spirituality and go, who would let me lose a child?

SPEAKER_00 52:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 52:43

Which is a very real, understandable way to see things. So death brings up this idea of faith and spirituality for us. And I think depending on what comes up for people, then depends on how they handle it. So yes, you're right. A lot of people feel this need to release something. I have heard many a what some people would describe as deathbed confession. Um, I could probably count on, I could count on one hand the amount of times that they have been huge, significant things like people expect to see on TV. Most of us, we all have skeletons in our closet. We all have stuff that we've gone through that is not common knowledge or that you know we wouldn't want to share. But for the most part, I do genuinely believe, maybe naively, but human beings are inherently good people. I think we all try and bumble along through life doing the best we can with whatever hand we're dealt. I do believe our souls come here with purpose. I do believe that actually some people come in as troubled souls, which is why their lives are mapped out in a completely different way to other people's. So all of those things come up and affect our deaths. In soul midwifery, we call them soul wounds. So stuff that we've experienced through like your mum, for example, that losing a child will be a soul wound.

SPEAKER_00 53:56

Well, she lost two, actually.

SPEAKER_01 53:57

Oh god, okay, yeah, but significant soul wounds. Yeah. So some people may have a soul wound about a relationship, a love, an unrequited love, um, a job that they got made redundant for that they loved. It doesn't have to be I say these things are huge. On paper, it doesn't have to be I was abused, I lost a child. It could be I I should have made up with that long-lost friend, I wish I'd taken that job. Um I never went to Australia and I really wanted to. You know, soul wounds come in so many different forms. That's normally the stuff that comes up for people. So what often comes up is the I wish, I wish I would have done this. It's the stuff that's not done. And interestingly, as we all know, but we don't really appreciate, it's always never about stuff. It's always about people, memories, experiences, love, feelings, emotions. Most people will start to go, oh, you know, I wish I'd have gone to Australia, or I wish I'd have made up with that person in my life, or I wish I worked less, you know, I wish I was around for the kids' sports days more, I wish I was able to go on that brownie trip and support the school. I wish I'd said yes to that swimming instructor thing that they asked to go on as a parent. You know, what we realize the experiences we've missed. And on reflection, that's the stuff that comes up. So, yes, there are big things that come up for people. Um, that is also why I think it's so important that we work on ourselves as human beings while we're here, so that when that time comes, they're either less impactful, they've been supported, they've been accepted. We don't have to get to our deathbeds with all this stuff. We all have a choice how we process those soul wounds. But yeah, I think that the most common and obvious reflection is very much about the stuff that hasn't been done. But what's also really interesting is that suddenly people will be very, very grateful. Suddenly, people recognize, God, how lucky was I to be able to have a 60-year marriage? You know, how lucky was I to make a you know, a gentleman very recently died, and 10 days before he just found out he was going to be a great great-granddad. You know, so how lucky, you know, he was, he felt. He was so proud to know that he was leaving this world as a great granddad. So there's there's a lot of love. Death, again, this is the other thing. We see death and dying as this awful, scary thing. Yes, it's challenging. Yes, our grief is the scary, awful thing, but there's a lot of love around somebody that dies. Now, whether you want to look at this from a religious perspective and you believe that they've reached this state of nirvana and they're gonna go home and they've got to a state of peace, amazing, whether God's gonna look after them, whatever it is, from a spirituality perspective, there's a lot of love and gratitude, and this person was they achieved this in their life and they had this incredible purpose and they affected so many lives and they had this impact, and but also this just the love of oh my god, what a great person they were, and I love them so much.

SPEAKER_00 56:58

Have you ever had someone tell you something in confidence at the end and asked you to relay it to a family member after they've died?

SPEAKER_01 57:08

Yes. So there's two situations I'm thinking of like that. Like I said, I think these are included in the ones I could count on one hand of the really kind of serious stuff.

SPEAKER_02 57:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:21

There's one situation that I never passed anything on because it was said to me out of spite. So something was said to me to pass it on to cause harm. Right. And I didn't. The other thing was a bit of a confession, and it was just a very difficult conversation to then have, but it's how those conversations are done. And again, slight tangent. This makes me think of things like when people are in care homes or they have care agencies, and quite often it's those people, even if somebody's visiting somebody at home, they do four visits a day, they might help them wash, bath, shower, they're there doing their continence care. It's intimate, there's a lot of trust. Those people often hear a lot of these stories. What worries me in our healthcare system is that those people are not equipped to have those conversations, they don't have the experience or the communication skills, they don't have the emotional support when they leave that visit to go, what the heck do I do with that? And then they don't know then how to be able to have that conversation either with their own supervisor, their own staff, or obviously family, whatever needs to happen. So this is a big part of what I'm trying to achieve with my training. And I do a lot of consultancy for healthcare organizations on this kind of stuff because people need to realise the magnitude of their roles, like what you are going to hear. How do you you don't then just go to the next person and go, Oh, do you know what she said? Oh my god, but like there's a way that these things need to be dealt with. So, yeah, that some things have had to have been discussed with real sensitivity. But you talk about sort of deathbed confessions and all this stuff. I never forget one lady, she it was in the months before she died, so she was still kind of okay but declining. And we were having lots of conversations. She told me a lot about stuff within her family that had happened, not for me to share, but just you know, she wanted to offload this happened to that person and that person and she knew this and that. And so she was sharing everything. And I said to her, I said, Is there anything you want me to do with any of this? Because more often than not, people just want to talk. Sometimes we go down the road of ritual, maybe it's writing letters, candles, prayer, incense, maybe there's a whole ceremony about, you know, we can go down that road if people want to. More often than not, people just need to get it off their chest. So I said to her, Do you need anything? Do you need me to do anything with any of this? Is there any work that we can do together? Anything that I can do to support you with this stuff? And she said no. She said, No, do you know what? She said, I need to figure out what I take with me and what I leave behind. And I was like, that's just an amazing, but yeah, that's what it's about. We need to figure out what stuff she says, what she does, what she leaves here, if you like, in this earthly realm, and what her soul takes with her, having never been said or expressed.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:04

It is really interesting because I researched our family tree quite extensively on my mum's side, and they were all farmers, they all married their cousins, it was all very incestuous, a little bit crazy. Um and we've gone right back to 1532 or something.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:19

Lovely.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:20

Yeah, amazing. But in doing that, we did un uncover some, it was all triggered by an aunt an elderly great aunt that was losing her marbles who produced a photograph and said to my mum, This is your dad's first wife. Oh wow. Like, I'm sorry. And then but I'm not supposed to tell you about that, and then she went back into wherever she was in her dementia, and we never got any more information about it. And everybody, barring one person that could have possibly known about this thing, this incident was dead. And so we started researching, and it was amazing what we came across and other information that came to light because in those days everything was so hidden and swept under the carpet and people sent away to have babies, and you know, and you got babies, all sorts of things, yeah. Yeah, yeah, and like affairs with people and babies that were just kind of given away because someone couldn't have one. And I find it fascinating that actually we're moving out of the time of the that era of souls that would have had to hide so much in quite the same way. Because obviously, we l in the modern world we share everything.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:41

In our world, but I think that that that speaks to also a couple of different things. So our elderly generation, or parents, grandparents, exactly like you said, they were of a world where we didn't talk about stuff. And actually, thanks to the first and second world war, they didn't talk about it because everyone was so over talking about death. There was so much death, so much loss, people couldn't talk about it anymore because it was just like I need to function, particularly the women that had children, or the men that did come home from war, what they'd experienced at war. So everyone just shut down. So the that generation that are now dying are really struggling or have some of the more serious stuff to come up because they experience life in a whole other way than we do. We're living like kings now. You know, to have our food's not rationed. I mean, I know you know we've got our issues, don't get me wrong, the world is not perfect, far from it. But the way that we live, the hot water, the food, the access to everything that we have, the emotional support, the mental health way that we deal with all of those things now, totally different. Our grandparents' generation had to pretty much shut everything down and crack on anyway. Now, don't get me wrong, I think there's a balance, you know, but stuff when they are dying now is is either coming up or they are still holding it. And they are having maybe not the death they need or want or deserve because they have never been able to express themselves. And actually, some people don't have the tools, they can't articulate into words what it is they're feeling. The memories have changed as well over the years, so they're not quite sure what actually happened anymore, but they've never been emotionally supported to figure that stuff out. So actually, it's boxed, it's compartmentalized, it's put away, and they genuinely don't know how to open that box, it's locked, it's sealed. So that is also part of our roles as doolers, soul midwives is to support that when people can't or don't want to or not able to talk about things.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:32

Do you notice a difference between is there a significant difference, I should say, between the way men die and the way women die?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:41

Ooh, interesting. No. I'm gonna say no. Main reason being that when we get to that point where our bodies are starting to shut down, we are all just human beings. It's not so much a gender or a masculine-feminine. Don't get me wrong, I think when we talk about energy, we all are a mix of this masculine and feminine energy. We have to figure out what energy we need in what different situations, what's going to serve us, how do we stand up, how do we show up. So that is a big part of every human, yes, the masculine-feminine energy. But as far as genders and roles, everybody's just stripped right back to a human being. So it's more about whether they are strong-willed, stubborn, a talker, or somebody that's more stoic and calm and level-headed. And obviously, that is, you know, each to their own, everybody's, we're also weird and wonderful in our own ways.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:32

Yeah, absolutely. Another thing I wanted to talk to you about was this, and you did mention it right at the beginning, was this concept that spirits come to get someone when they're dying. And uh, we did experience this with my dad quite a lot in the last year and a half of his life, where he slept an awful lot, and he would do it's called the death reach, isn't it? Where he's asleep and he would be reaching out, and uh we saw it an awful lot. And then he would often, not necessarily at the same time as having done that, but he'd wake up and tell us he'd been visited by people or they'd come to get him. And in the last week of his life, he when my brother went to visit him, he said that he had three people there with him. And did he have enough room in his car for everybody? Because they all needed to go with him, and they were all people that were dead, you know, people were close to my dad. And I find it fascinating this concept of people coming to get people, you know. And my mum did it too, and in in the final throws of her, it was actually a horse she was talking about, uh, that had come that because they grew up on a farm. Uh, and um so what do you reckon? I mean, have you experienced a lot of this death-reaching behaviour? Um have you?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:46

Yeah. So so again, even the people that maybe would identify themselves as saying that they don't have a faith, they don't believe in anything, will go, Oh, do you know what? I had a funny old dream last night about my granddad. Or so people interpret it and make sense of it in. Different ways. But yes, there's so many stories. And it's actually so it's a common, it's a common and recognized sign of dying when people start mentioning their dead relatives, people in the room, things that they're experiencing that we are not. That's when also healthcare professionals will even start going, oh, okay, because it's something that happens that often. The reaching up, yeah, absolutely. And what's really interesting is that in all of my experiences where I've seen people doing that, I can honestly say with my hand on my heart, it's never with an expression of fear. It's always like in awe. Or it's a shock, but it's a but it's never a fear, it's never a scared feeling. And I just think this is where you hear people that have near-death experiences come back and talk about a light and an energy and a feeling and a this and whatever it might be. That's again a whole other episode. There's something that happens in and around us. Now, some people would say that it's consciousness, your brain waves, the chemicals, the neurons misfiring, and you're experiencing things that aren't real. Maybe that's true. But in my experience, what I feel as people die is that I am not the only person in that room.

unknown 1:07:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:09

I have some situations where I can say, honestly, hand on heart, I've seen somebody as clear as I'm seeing you now. I've felt, I've heard things, I've seen things like somebody sitting on a chair and then the cushion puffs up and there's nobody there. Oh God, so many things. I've seen things move. I've seen people talking to people and having a two-way conversation. Again, as clear as we are. And I think they are not making like that to them, this is so real. One lady I looked after, her husband had died 35 years before, and she'd never met anybody else. She always talked about being back with him, and I hope he comes to get me. And that was one situation I saw where the chair moved. I was in with her, and she said, Oh, he's been sat here all night. And just as I looked, maybe it's because I was half again. My brain wants my ego, wants to go. Well, she just said he'd been sat in the chair all night. So of course you've kind of made up, but I know what I saw. Yeah, then she'd say he's come, he's he's getting ready, he's gonna come for me. I don't need to worry, and it gave her so much peace to know. And then actually, see, when she did go, it was this real overwhelming feeling of yeah, he came to get her. He never he never forgot her, he never left her. And we talked a lot as well about time and how it had been 35 years for her, but it will feel like minutes, you know, for him and by the time that they're back together. So, yeah, I thought again, that could be a whole other episode in itself. Lights going on and off, things like that. People, when they start, they they're seeing things and they're looking past you, going, How can you not see? Or there was somebody there, or the windows open, what's that outside? And yeah, I just feel, I feel how real that is for people, and I can sense there's a knowing as well that when somebody's soul has already left their body, even if their body hasn't stopped yet, yes, yes, fully when somebody's soul is still energetically present. Yeah, it's like and and again, I can't, I'm not sure I can even describe it or put it into words, but there's this feeling that I will see somebody that's died, a physical body's died, and be like, they're still here. Like, and that's not a bad thing. That that could just be the process of the soul's taking its time, maybe there's they need to hang around to make sure everybody's okay, maybe it's the wrong atmospheric something or other. Maybe we need to have a lit, maybe we need to leave the room, you know, and let that soul do its thing. But equally, when I've walked in and people are taking their last breaths, or I've been there with the family, and the family are, you know, they're talking and I'm thinking they're already gone. Like that, then like you can see, and also from a science perspective, there are so many studies about this moment of death, and obviously the the argument or conversation about whether we have a soul or not. But what they've done is studies the the moment somebody dies, there's a shift in weight. So a body will lose a couple of grams, and it's like how how do you justify that? Like, what where is that weight loss? If anything, people go heavier because they're a dead weight. That's what we said, because there's obviously nothing keeping the body functioning, everything just stops and stills. Where do those few grams go? Is that the soul leaving? Is there is that an energy thing? The but and the obviously energy doesn't die, we know it doesn't dissolve, it just transmutes, it changes. So, is that the energy that moves out of the body? Like, what is it? Fascinating stuff. I love it. Yeah, I really love it. There's so many stories, and yeah, the reaching, the talking, the pointing. Interestingly, I mentioned earlier about terminal agitation. Yeah, phase through dying that a lot of people go through. A lot of the time it's very short-lived in the sense of minutes, hours, maybe days, but it's a short period of unrest for people. Um, in Solid Riffery, we call it the fire stage, and it's just that period where people are hot, they're cold, they're up, they're down, they're settled, then they're not, then their arms go, and then it's you know, and you're thinking, Oh, come on, dad, and they quiet and down, and then it's like, oh, okay, and you go to do something, and then they're awake again, and you're there constantly at the bedside. It's that period, which I'm assuming as I'm saying that a lot of people will probably go, Oh my god, I had that, I recognize that.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:08

Yeah, we went through that with mum.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:09

Yeah. Yeah. It's a very kind of common phase. If people are alert and communicative at that point, some people are, some people aren't. If somebody is experiencing terminal agitation, they are normally days, possibly a week or two from death, but it's normally shortly before death. What people will also see in that phase is things like bugs and ants on a wall, and it's often little fiddly things. They're either on a floor, they're on the wall. I mean, I've gone around people's houses with brooms sweeping what apparent spiders off of walls that I can't see, but people are adamant that they're seeing it. Um, I don't know why. I don't know why it's bugs and ants, but again, clinically, if you're a healthcare professional and somebody's particularly in a hospice and somebody says about the ants on the wall, they will take that as a sign that things are starting to change because it's such a common symptom or experience that people go through.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:59

I have never heard of that one. That's a new one on me. How interesting. So this has just been such a wonderful conversation. Well, I think I do think we could talk for hours and hours. But if anybody has been affected by anything we've talked about today, obviously they can contact you, can't they? Or, you know, we'll make sure there's some links in the show notes for anyone that feels like they need support. Um, but so just tell us quickly where can people find you? Um, although we didn't even talk about the podcast, so tell us a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:27

So I'm on all socials, and my website is KTC Song Midwife, but obviously if you put in Katie Costello, end of life support services, but my email, but my website is Ktc SoulMidwife.com. So all the information about me is on there. My socials is KTCSoul Midwife. Um, and my kind of part brand, if you like, for the death education is Dying for a Coupa. And that is the podcast and the masterclass, which is the death education. So the dying for a cupper podcast is very much me waffling on like I am now. It started off as little snippets of information. I've had real life guests telling some really in-depth, some challenging and some really heartwarming, lovely stories of dying, giving real quite graphic and honest information, which I'm so grateful for. And I've also got on there in the most recent series a load of weird and wonderful experts. We've got embarrass, reconstruction people, fellow soul midwife authors, people that are quite well known in the field as well, to kind of share their perspectives and as well their real life stories. So the podcast is just very human, honest conversations about all things death and dying. And the dying for a cupper, the masterclass is the CPD accredited death education. And I got it accredited for good reason as well, because it's it's a formal learning, it's it's recognized, it's certified. So anybody that is in healthcare, if anybody watching or listening to this works in care, homes, hospices, nursing homes, hospitals, whatever, this is accredited learning that I'm delivering to those organizations in a formal capacity. So I want people to have the education because there isn't any. So yeah, so that's so that's that's really kind of what I do. And I'm on LinkedIn and like I said, Facebook, Instagram, waffling on anywhere, anybody will have me.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:11

Thank you so much. I just think it's such an important conversation to normalise death, having been through this kind of whole experience myself in the last couple of years and realized that actually it's not something to be scared of. And yeah, so thank you so much for your time. I'm so grateful.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:28

Thank you for having me. This has been great. Like I said, I could talk for England. I also have a book. Oh my book. It's called a gift, it's available on Amazon. So if you put in a gift and Katie Costello, it will come up. It's uh part funeral plan, part life story, part love letter. And I put that together based on the Solwood referee and my funeral celebrancy as just recognizing the life stuff that doesn't get talked about. And when I meet people to plan their person's funeral, so many people are stuck with things about their person's life. Or they can give me all the that school, that school, that job, that date, but they don't necessarily know about somebody's hobbies or their passions or their favourite childhood memory or their favourite holiday, or you know, so it's it's real, it's a real personal book that people can use to document their wishes and tell their story and also write down some information about what they want for their funeral from the technical perspective as well. So that's a gift on Amazon.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:19

Amazing, thank you so much.